Poll: Waterboarding - Are You For Or Against It, Why? Is It Torture?
There is an article out today in CNSNews about how many of our senators and their attitudes toward waterboarding. Take for example these two:
Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.) would not directly answer whether waterboarding was justified in the case of Abu Zubahdah, but said: “Nothing comes to my mind at this moment to suggest that it is” justifiable.
and…
Sen. Mark Pryor (D-Ark.) said he still lacked knowledge on the issue. “I’ll just have to look at it,” Pryor said in an interview. “Generally speaking, waterboarding is not justified. It’s torture. However, there is a story in this morning’s Washington Post that someone’s saying he feels like it did lead to preventing further terrorism. … I don’t know enough about it. Is he talking about a specific case? I’d have to look at the specifics of what he’s saying. I can’t comment on it because I just don’t know anything about the situation.”
So we want to hear from you. Where do you stand on waterboarding, and why?
Da Nang, 1968, an uncooperative VC gets a little encouragement to hand over info.
Be respectful of others and their opinions. Inflammatory remarks and inane leftist drivel will be deleted. It ain’t about free speech, remember you’re in a private domain. My website, my prerogative.
If you can't handle using your real email address, don't bother posting a comment.
for… and more.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:25 amFor it. More like cooersion to me and not torture. Bamboo shoots under the fingernails, burning with cigarettes, or an act that causes actual physical harm. Not a little water poured over your face with no lasting effect other than possibly hurt feelings.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:26 amI dont think it is torture. Its “simulated”. They arent throwing them in a lake with weights on their feet and telling them you only get pulled up if u talk lol, they are just simulating that effect. So making people stand for days on end, its the same thing. It makes a person desperate to sit, and fatigues the body and mind, where waterboarding makes a person desperate to stop the gag reflew and have their breathing return to normal. Their is no “pain” involved. Its no worse than taking someone who is terrified of heights onto a ferris wheel lol. to me waterboarding is an excellent techinique. The person isnt getting hurt, they are only simulating that he is drowning, and the guy only gives up because his mind is mentally telling him he is drowning, even tho he actually isnt. all they have to do it talk in the first place…
December 12th, 2007 at 11:27 amSince when is being scared = to torture? i guess if you’re a liberal and feelings are all that matter it’s the worst thing in the world
just one question… anyone know what the purpose of the cloth over the head is? does that keep the person from drowning? or is is so they can’t see whats going on so their mind goes nuts?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:28 amIt appears that it gets the job done, so I’m for it.
These whiners and bleeding hearts need to realize that if we didn’t get good, actionable intel as a result of waterboarding some captured head of a terrorist organization, we might just as well give up and let them kill us.
Personally, I think waterboarding goes way too easy on these shitheads.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:30 amIt doesn’t matter if water boarding is actually torture or not. In this war against a global insurgency, what matters is if water boarding is perceived as torture.
If I were in Bush’s position, I would hold a press conference and submit to water boarding. Likewise, I would tell the world that we do not condone interrogation techniques that I would not endure myself. It doesn’t matter if this is true or not, only that the world believes it.
All the Dems and lefties and aclu types would look like such pussies if Bush went on TV and did that. That would be the end of the debate.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:31 amAnything that does not cause permanent injury or death is legitimate to use to gain info. In police orals, we ask the question, “What would you do to get info from a man who is holding children hostage, knowing that he has the info and that the children will die if not rescued immediately?” If an applicant goes with the PC answer, you merely step it up to what if it’s a hundred children, then what if it’s your children, etc. to determine when someone changes their purpose from being PC to doing the right thing. The dilemma in having this discussion with politicians is their view of right-wrong is always subjective and they give it up for their personal power that comes from being PC. In other words, it’s always about them, never about us and the country.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:33 amI am for it!
There are times when the intense graphic torture of suspected deviants, masquerading as so-called freedom fighters, who are no more than vicious terrorists,seeking the murder of as many innocent people as possible, must be performed to extract, life saving, important information from them.
Water Boarding is one of the least of the methods that I would employ in the extraction of said information.
In fact: I volunteer to perform such interogations and examinations and would do so with some glee.
This discussion ought also revolve around the treatment of American POW’s past by: The Japanese, Germans, North Koreans, Vietnamese, Soviets, Iranians, Iraqis, Somolese, and various other malformants who have held our military personel captive throughout scirmishes, conflicts, and wars past.
Moral ground - smoral ground, war is war, you be-head our soldiers, sailors, airmen, or marines and we be-head a thousand of yours. You bomb our innocent women and children and we bomb ten thousand of yours. It is time to finish this war with pure victory and if torture assist in that goal then utilize it as the war-time tool that it is.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:39 amI’m all for it - I don’t consider it torture. The dems can’t quite make their case - These people will not stop until we convert or die -and they are more than happy to accomodate us in whichever we choose…
December 12th, 2007 at 11:44 amI’m for it, with one caveat.
Instead of water, pig urine is to be used when questioning jihadis.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:45 amI’m for it, and I agree with Grumpy. The problem isn’t whether or not it’s torture, the problem is whether or not it’s perceived as torture. If I were the pres..shoot even though I’m not, I would submit to it to show it doesn’t cause any harm or death and simply makes one extremely uncomfortable. We’re not talking about breaking limbs or putting out eyes witha hot iron or any of the really nasty stuff here. I say do what’s necessary. If it saves lives, how can it be hurting anyone? fact is it’s not.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:50 ammy 2 cents
I’ve got a gallon bucket and a dish rag if the CIA needs any help?
Am I suggesting that we drill holes into they’re kneecaps or charge up a car battery to their balls? No I am not.
But if I know that some a-hole has a bombed or knows about one and I need him to talk - all bets are off my friend. And I suggest that those interrogations be kept quiet - Remember Col. West, his use of a sidearm (no one was shot) helped stop an ambush and saved his troops lives - he got a Article 15 non-judicial punishment and a $5,000 fine. Best money he ever spent.
In defense of my life or my families or my fellow soldiers or my country, I’ll exchanged my higher morals for they’re lives, 24/7 - 365 - it’s not even a close call.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:51 amThanks Frank. You summed it up perfectly.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:52 amFor.
Interrogators are trained and supervised. They go thru it themselves in training for Christ’s sake! The whole time, medical personnel are standing by, a chain of command is observing with authorization to halt proceedings if the rules are broken. They were video taped for others to analyse for proceedural errors and violations, as well as for ‘lessons learned’ to make the process more effective.
Three scumbags were boarded so far this century. It was carried out on the highest authority, INCULDING
demo-rats 
in our Congress who knew full well exactly what was being done.
Not a single lieing lib has authored a bill in Congress to specifically and Constitutionaly deem it illegal. Why? Because it is EFFECTIVE and HAS SAVED AMERICAN LIVES.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:54 amSo should every jock who ever gave a nerd a swirly be hauled before the Hague?
Waterboarding is not torture. It’s intimidation.
I’d do whatever it takes to get them to talk.
There is nothing, NOTHING, I would not do to these creatures. If that damns my soul, so be it.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:57 amI don’t care about Islamofascists fealings or welfare but I am not so sure the information you going to get from that procedure is going to be realiable.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:00 pmIm all for it- if we have to scare some punk terrorist piece of shit to save lives of others then i would even go alot further. Personally i would shoot the son of bitch after we got the information
December 12th, 2007 at 12:00 pmTell the hand wringers what they want to hear, take the debate off the table.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:07 pmTake care of business, what ever it takes, in a “discrete” way, then get on with this war.
Stop playing ping pong with these POS politicians/MSM talking heads.
I’m for it. I saw the video of the Fox News correspondent that allowed himself to be water boarded using 4 different techniques. He said he would have told them anything after only a few seconds, but was also amazed at how well he felt a few minutes after they were done.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:09 pmIf it saves American and coalition lives, I’m for it. Mullah’s are already chopping us up and shit, so I think we should atleast up the ante.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html
waterboarding is sissy stuff compared to what they do to their captives.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:12 pmI would like to pose this choice to our fine upstanding Congress: Would you rather be “pretend” drowning or would you rather be on floor 82 of a burning twin tower with no way down except out the windows.
Waterboarding may be torture (than swirlies are of course), but who really gives a shit whether it is.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:13 pmHmmmm…. let me weight the facts here….. OK… our enemy uses power tools on our soldiers, and we use a rag and a bucket of water.
I say… I’m for it, and we should use it more. Not that tough of a desision.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:17 pmI am absolutely for it!!
I firmly believe that we should base our interrogation techniques should resemble what our enemies do to our troops.
We should take the low level shitheads and saw their heads off while the HVT’s and the video cameras watch. Then get it out on Al Jazera!
Does anyone remember the terrorist torture handbook that was found in Iraq, I saw it here.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:22 pmIt’s torture. It gets results. I’m for it.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:22 pmMany other respondents have echoed my thoughts above.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:25 pmAdd me to the “For” group.
@Howie: Check my link
December 12th, 2007 at 12:25 pmFOR IT!!! and what ever else you got to do to save American lives
December 12th, 2007 at 12:25 pmummmm no! nick berg and daniel pearl was torture!!!
December 12th, 2007 at 12:33 pmFor it 100%
December 12th, 2007 at 12:38 pmFOR IT.
It may be scary, but it is not torture.
What the terrorist do to their prisoners is torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:45 pmfor it all the way …the Spooks should never have leaked that we did it in the 1st place though… there so fukn soft now its a wonder they can even find any spooks who will do it.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:59 pmFor, in extreme circumstance, not the status quo.
Like most everyone else said, no permanent damage.
And like Irish Gal said, who really gives a shit.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:03 pmticticboom: I like your style.
My only problem is we have pukes in this country(like the bitch Harry Reid, and I could go on)that think we have to make all this public. There’s no doubt that by now the jihadis are waterboarding their foot soldiers as part of basic training, making the technique obsolete or at least less effective.
Now we have to go to tasers or Black and Decker and we really didn’t want to. Think about the savings in fossil fuel, greenhouse gases, and CO2 emissions we get with waterboarding.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:11 pmI’m against it. We don’t need it. We have effective means without having to waterboard. John McCain, who spent five years as a P.O.W., is convinced its torture. If a P.O.W. says its torture, then I believe him. These guys should be treated as P.O.W.’s so we can move past this issue and have one less thing to have shoved in our face while we are killing our enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan. We treated NAZI’s as P.O.W.’s and their ideology was just as heinous as these Islamists. Call them P.O.W.’s and keep them locked up for as long as this war goes on I say, or just ship them back with RF implants in their ass so we can track them to Bin Laden’s cubby hole. We’re Americans, and we don’t need to waterboard, we just have to be able to provide security to people and they will come flocking to us as their protectors. Which is why I support McCain’s call for 500,000 troops in Iraq. If we accomplished as much as we did with a surge of 20,000 troops, could you imagine the success with 500,000 American freedom fighters on the ground. Thats what should have been done from the get go, but bad plans equals bad results.
Cpl. Alexander
December 12th, 2007 at 1:20 pmUSMC Camp Lonestar, Iraq 2003
For it. Irish Gal, spot on.
John C, no disrespect but I don’t think we are talking about legal combatants. As much as the Nazi’s were assholes, they were recognized legal combatants. In two well known cases it worked - period. And many lives were spared.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:36 pmI am pro waterboarding.
No, I don’t think it’s torture; no physical damage is done. These “do-gooders” should see what recruits have to endure at boot camp, I’d say the raw recruits have it a lot tougher.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:44 pmJust Do IT!
December 12th, 2007 at 1:44 pmIT IS NOT TORTURE!
I AM ALL FOR IT!
December 12th, 2007 at 1:55 pmI’m with John courage on this one. Whether or not it is actually torture the general perception is that it is. Terrorists torture, we don’t. Continuing a practice that most people think is torture doesn’t help that idea.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:56 pmFor it.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:58 pmSend “them” to Air Crew school then to SEAR school untill they beg
December 12th, 2007 at 2:01 pmI am for it.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:20 pmEvil exists.
This planet is all about life and death and good and evil.
I have to be honest, this topic really confuses me. Waterboarding causes zero damage. None. All it causes is the ‘feeling’ of drowning. It’s a percieved thing, not factual. There is no threat to life or limb. No scars. No welts. Nothing. What confuses me even more about our leaders in congress is that they say that waterboarding is torture, yet they approved the development and now the deployment of the new ‘Active Denial System’:
http://www.defense-update.com/products/a/ads.htm
These are heading to Iraq, if not there already. Yet these systems cause a person to have a ‘feeling’ of being burned. I watched this used on a live person on Future Weapons and the guy they turned it on had a very severe and immediate reaction to the system. So, water = bad, fire = good? Felling like drowning = bad, feeling like burning = A-OK! Hypocrites.
If these systems and techniques can gather life saving intel while doing nothing that causes true physical harm it should be in play. Period. There is very little we can do about the propoganda being spread in these countries, especially when most of it is being driven by poloitical opponents and our own media that is invested in certain political agendas, but as long as we can here, at home, hold our heads up and say that we KNOW we aren’t using torture as we define it, then I think we are fine. At the end of the day, we have to look ourselves in the mirror.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:23 pmIT WORKS, AND CAUSES NO PERMANENT HARM.ELECTRODES TO THE TESTICLES ALSO CREATES A CO OPERATIVE EFFECT.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:25 pmAbsolutely in favor of. There’s nothing going on in waterboarding that doesn’t occur while water skiing, going swimming with your older brothers, or at a frat party with a pool. Some sissy bâtards just want to let the terrorists win.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:29 pmHere we go again. Liberals are trying to redefine a word. First, it was patriotism. They know they’re not patriotic in the true sense so they try to define patriotism as dissent. Now, they are trying to redefine torture. Torture has always been physical pain, maiming, slicing and dicing, nutcracking, eye-gouging, tongue removal, a hot poker up the bunghole, etc. Waterboarding creates a fear and feeling of drowning. No permanent physical disability occurs and, perhaps, a bit of minor psycological damage is done, nothing a year with a shrink can’t fix. So, I say waterboarding is not torture in the true, original definition of torture.
Having said that, listening to GWB talk off the cuff IS torture but not as much as having to listen to Hildebeast give a state-of-the-union address for the next 4 to 8 years. Heaven forbid.
Whatever it takes to get these unlawful combatants, who are not signatores to the Geneva Conventions, to spill their guts before we execute them for crimes against humanity. I say kill them all and let The Force sort them out.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:35 pmfeeding an insurgent terrorist arsehole slowly feet first through a large bacon slicer/meat slicer would be classed as torture,if i was left in a room with them with my bag of impliments[tools?] it would be classed as torture[oh to play with them for just an hour would be such joy]and i would be locked for quite a while,water boarding is not torture there are no scars,no limbs missing,no teeth missing,genatalia still intact[mores the pity]eyes and eye lids still attached,they are not being fed by a tube afterwards or being pushed around in a wheel chair,so by the standard that it does no damage it cannot be classed as torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:38 pmAll for it!
The more hurt feelings the better
December 12th, 2007 at 2:41 pm@John Courage:
The Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe treated their prisoners humanely. We returned the favor. The SS, on the other hand, was well known for abusing or murdering prisoners. They had a hard time surrendering. Many who managed not to be shot on the spot were later executed for war crimes. Sabotuers who wore US uniforms, most famously and to best effect in the Battle of the Bulge, were executed.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again:
If you don’t wear a uniform or indentifying insignia, report to a chain of command, or are held accountable to military discipline, you are not a lawful combatant, and we can shoot you out of hand, never mind waterboarding.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:09 pm@ticticboom
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again:
If you don’t wear a uniform or indentifying insignia, report to a chain of command, or are held accountable to military discipline, you are not a lawful combatant, and we can shoot you out of hand, never mind waterboarding.
————————————-
Truer words were never spoken.
On a scale of “Torture 1-10″ I give it a 2 or 3 …
Am I for it? Absodamnlutely …
I say we use it on Congress.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:23 pm@IP727
ELECTRODES TO THE TESTICLES ALSO CREATES A CO OPERATIVE EFFECT.
—————————————————–
While being waterboarded works even better, I suspect!
December 12th, 2007 at 3:25 pmI support any and everything possible to save one soldiers life or an entire city. We need to stop political correctness and take the glove off and leave them off.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:20 pmTorture? - I don’t think so. Lock the bastards in a darkened cell with only a closed loop Keith Olberwomann video tape playing on the tube. Now that would be torture!
December 12th, 2007 at 4:28 pmFuck yes, it’s a no brainer.
Drown the fucks if you have too..
December 12th, 2007 at 4:38 pmJust take no enemy combatant prisoners - saves a lot of trouble. Shoot the orcs where they stand.
If a so called “high value” slime is captured water board to drain his brain then release him at 30,000 feet in mid ocean without a chute. Fishfood.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:41 pmAll for it.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:05 pmFor…
You do whatever it takes if nat’l security is at stake or it might save the life of one single American. Filet their penis, put their balls in a vice and burn their eyes out! I couldn’t give two shits for the people we have waterboarded.
They cut off our people’s f-ing heads with a Goddamn knife and I’m supposed to worry about how they feel?? Fuck ‘em and feed ‘em fish heads. This one’s a no-brainer.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:14 pmFor it. It has worked. It has saved lives.
The question is whether we are going to use coerced interogation or not. If we are going to use it, we need a policy that strives to be the most efficient, effective and humane as possible. From what I understand, that is the policy we currently have. I would argue that it is more humane to break someone using waterboarding in 30 - 90 seconds than subjecting them to days, weeks, months of other techniques. The enemy will be more successful if we don’t use coerced interogation.
I hope that we don’t make these decisions based on what other people say about us. The people who are harping the loudest about torture think the US is evil and they always will. They will accuse us of torture no matter what our actions are.
I don’t think our policies are going to have any bearing on what the enemy does to their detainees.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:33 pmThe debate is torturing me. I’ve come to the end of my tolerance for D’rat surrender monkeys. Let’s get the bastards leaking CIA data, waterboard them with boiling water, that’s torture and they deserve it.
No prisoners, no problem, no complaints.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:51 pmHOW ABOUT WE JUST USE THE BOARD AND HIT THEM OVER THE HEAD WITH IT when they take a shower.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:14 pm@Jim
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
December 12th, 2007 at 6:29 pmFor it. We waterboard our own people in SEAR school. It’s no big deal. Incidently, AQ wrote the book on torture. We have nothing like it.
Any fool that thinks that stopping waterboarding will somehow make our enemies change the way they treat our captured soldiers, might want to go get the autopsy photos of those troops that were captured and butchered.
AQ and their allies will not change their ways no matter what we do.
And as far as the Geneva Convention is concerned, enemy combatants out-of-uniform captured on the battlefield have NO rights whatsoever. We can do whatever we want to them
And why did Pelosi, Harmon and Rockefeller approve of waterboarding when they were briefed on it back in 2003?
Oh that’s right. They thought that waterboarding might not be enough. Like to see them all testify under oath as to what they knew about the program and why did they encourage even stronger methods of interrogation?
In my view we should drop all this hollier-than-thou morality play, and get down to business with our enemies.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:23 pmFuck AQ. Do to them what they do to us. An eye-for-an-eye.
Cut them no slack.
“And as far as the Geneva Convention is concerned, enemy combatants out-of-uniform captured on the battlefield have NO rights whatsoever. We can do whatever we want to them”
You couldn’t be more wrong. They still fall under international law as a POW and therefore we are bound by the 3rd Geneva convention (there were 4 you know, not just one). “enemy combatant” is just legal jargon designed to allow the US to avoid legal ramifications of treating these people below the standards of Geneva and International Law.
“In my view we should drop all this hollier-than-thou morality play, and get down to business with our enemies.
Fuck AQ. Do to them what they do to us. An eye-for-an-eye.
Cut them no slack.”
You are an animal, and are just as bad as them. Your argument is just a you-too logical fallacy. If Al Queda cut off the hands of babies would you advocate telling our soldiers to do the same to them? We can’t drop the hollier than thou morality play BECAUSE WE ARE HOLLIER THAN THEM. Unless of course we start doing the same shit they do to us. Great job America, now your just as bad as them.
What the fuck has happened to my Country? Before we respected human rights, we knew that torture was wrong. Now…now you people want to see “filleted penis” and “pig urine.” What the hell is wrong with all of you?
I’ve spoken personally with a General officer about this and he says that the biggest issue facing us over there is the hearts and minds of the people. He says that people join Al Queda In Iraq because they see pictures of Abu Ghraib, they hear about Americans beating detainees. He says the worst thing we could possible do as a nation is to torture these people.
We’ve already sacrificed so much in terms of lives. Lets not sacrifice the principles of this country too.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:40 pmI was for it before i was against it. Now i’m for it again
Seriously though, I’m for drowning the Bastards if they don’t talk within 15 seconds. That goes for all the Traitors also( CODE PINK, ANSWER, UFPJ, IVAW, CAIR, MAS, 99% of the Dem. Party, the San Fran. City Govt.,and don’t forget Westboro Baptist Cult). Ther is a host of others but these will do for now.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:47 pmDear Jack,
December 12th, 2007 at 8:13 pmThe reason people may join Al Qaida because of pictures of Abu Graib and stories of Beatings by American soldiers is because our Traitorous Main Stream Media made up all that crap because they have an abnormal hatred of GWB. I saw the pictures of Abu Graib-that wasn’t torture, either! They were not beatings. They were acts of humiliation. The New York Times ran 43 Front Page stories, highly exaggerated, on Abu Graib, but whenever a Western hostage got their head sawed of with a dull machete, the story ran once, back on page 6 or 7. If people hate us its because the MSM is on a mission to hurt GWB.
Waterboarding is not torture, its not sawing someone’s head off. It does not cause physical pain or injury. Democrats know this, but they’ll use anything to try to gain a political edge. That’s all it is to them, for many of them had no problem with waterboarding 2 years ago. Its just a different political weapon to them.
Jack-
I’m sure that you have missed the obvious sarcasm of my distinguished colleagues. I’m sure nobody here would actually support “fileted penis” or “pig urine” or “cutting off the hands of babies. Even though out anger at what is going on may sometimes drive us to say things like that.
So do not even compare waterboarding which gives a few seconds of discomfort to a real ass hole, to the barbaric beatings and beheadings that terrorists have bestowed on honorable people.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:33 pmAnd please that bullshit reason that they join Al Qaeda is because of what they saw from Abu Grahib or hearing about us beating detainees is ridiculous. They have grown up in a society that has beat into their narrow minded brains that anyone who is not muslim is evil. For god sake they wanted to behead a woman because she named a teddy bear “mohammed”. It has nothing to do with what “tactics” we use to gain information. Or the dumbass twister games they played at Abu Grahib. It has to do with a culture bred from the womb to hate. And the thought that they would all of a sudden begin to think we aren’t so bad simply because we take the high road is naive.
Sorry if you feel “uncomfortable” that we use some harsh measures to extract information from bad people. But at least take comfort that your country has not let you down. As much as we may say that we would like to do all these things to these people we all know that we are as you say HOLIER THAN THOU. Actions speak louder than words.
This is absolutely laughable. I am a college educated white collar professional, I only this to provide some perspective that I am not some poorly educated fringe wacko. My wife is also very well educated and although I can’t speak for that many people I can speak for her and I and we are in favor of doing WHATEVER it takes to protect America.
I love the way the protagonist in Vince Flynn’s novels deals with the bad guys. In the last one I read he shot one right in head in front of the other bad guys and then shot another through the knee, they got the message.
I am confident that our CIA has very sophisticated means of pulling info out of people and they should be allowed to do whatever is necessary.
Thats just our 2 x $0.02 worth.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:34 pm@chay
And what would happen if it got out in the Middle East that we were waterboarding people? Do you think they would care that some people in America don’t think it’s torture? Of course not. They would capitalize on it to the nth degree.
John McCain, a VIETNAM POW, says it’s torture. A General officer I’ve personally spoken to on the issue says it’s torture. The Army interrogation manual prohibits it, as does the USMC compliment.
There’s a whole range of reasons why people don’t think it’s torture, but there are really only 2 that matter. 1) it makes people feel comfortable. A false sense of security ensues when people think the government is doing everything it can to protect them, even violating international law (which explicitly prohibits waterboarding). 2) it satisfies some sick wish for retribution. I think some of the immature and animalistic comments above are evidence enough of this.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:41 pmI’m okay with waterboarding. I do not define it as torture. However, I am not okay with reciprocating the extreme bullshit of AQ. We all should base our actions on moral foundation, made up of principles… whether they be from the KJ bible, the book of Mormon or some profound chit you once read on a bathroom wall somewhere (
). Some things in life are not to be compromised. Evil will always attempt to make you compromise your morality. When you do, it wins. 
December 12th, 2007 at 8:57 pm“Evil will always attempt to make you compromise your morality. When you do, it wins”
Thank God. I thought all was lost. There is still hope.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:04 pmNo offense taken. The NAZI campaign in Europe was all about the creation of a lebensraum, or “living space”, for the German people and WORLD DOMINATION. This is a sentiment that is echoed by AQ, AQI, and other AQ affiliates. It was about creating a new world order in which the Third Reich (Caliphate) would eventually conquer the world and last a thousand years. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you this, but 6,000,000 Jews would be exterminated, 5,000,000 Russian P.O.W.’s were murdered, and the list goes on. This was not carried out by the S.S. alone, the S.S. played a leadership role, but the actual killings were done by the everyday foot soldier. Whether it was herding people into a gas chamber or spraying them with machine gun fire, it didn’t matter. The NAZI’s destroyed Europe, murdered millions, and pursued a policy of world domination. This is exactly what AQ and others want to see happen. The only difference is that the followers of the NAZI ideology had the advantage of being in power of an industrialized state. Which is what AQ wants to accomplish in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Algeria, etc. We defeated the NAZI’s and Japanese without waterboarding, so I’m pretty sure we can defeat a bunch of camel fucking cowards without it. By the way, I understand your hatred of our enemies, I was in Iraq and lost friends there. My oldest brother survived an IED, my youngest brother suffered a broken back during an assault in Ramadi, and my second oldest brother is in Fallujah right now. So I really don’t care if we kill every single one of them, the more the better. However, I believe that water boarding is torture, and these people should be treated as P.O.W.’s, the uniform issue is irrelevant because like I stated earlier, the only difference between them and the NAZI’s were that the NAZI’s won an election and gained the means for implementing their IDEOLOGY. Lock them up, and release them when this war is over. We didn’t execute every NAZI at the end of WWII, just the leaders. Lets apply the same rationale. Water boarding is more trouble than its worth. Besides, if we outlaw it, who says we can’t still do it in secret to high level officers who might actually know something.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:15 pm@ John Courage
Thank you. I knew there were more of us out here.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:34 pmI’m FOR doing whatever is necessary to protect our citizens, their lives, and sovereignty of the United States of America.
In a time of war, the perceptions of moral authority and righteousness mean nothing when innocent people are needlessly martyred by a death cult of megalomaniacs, hellbent on destroying modern civilization.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:53 pmAQ is probably already water boarding their people in their own SERE schools… thanks to this story even making it to the light of day.
Loudmouthed Mo-fo’s telling all about the methods that we use to pump shitbags for information need to be held under the towel for awhile too.
Torture or not, it should stay inside the little black bag of tricks, not be advertised.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:03 pmGo for it, they asked for it. If they hadn’t started the Crusades again, we wouldn’t be answering this question. They are all low level camel jockeys who kill any and all American when they can. Pig putzes.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:23 pmP.S. Pig Putzes, speaking of Harry Reid, lets do him too!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:24 pmIt is not torture, and I’m all for it.
I’m also for calling them mean names and taking away their toys.
December 13th, 2007 at 2:50 amIf we pinky swear we won’t waterboard, I’m sure they will pinky swear they won’t cut the penis’ off our soldiers and stuff them in their mouth or cut their heads off. Really, pinky swear….
December 13th, 2007 at 4:24 amFor it.
Whether or not it’s called “torture” is immaterial. If it’s effective and saves American lives…then do it. Who gives a flying fuck on a windy day what leftards, wrist-wringers and the rest of the world thinks about it.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:00 amI’m against waterboarding. I think we should skin them alive and show them their blood. They will talk!!!!!!!
December 13th, 2007 at 7:36 amSome of you people are insane.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:05 amThank God for people like John McCain.
Taking out AQ’s leaders won’t tumble their infrastructure. Whereas the Nazi ideology was supported by about 10% of the population, the rest were coerced. Muslim fundamentalists are -everywhere- and taking out Bin Laden and his cronies means that we only solve the problem for a little while. I don’t support the “catch & release” mentality that comes along with POWs. Yes, any prisoner of war, let’s treat like one… however, I feel that what we’re dealing with with this war on terror supercedes what we did with Nazi Germany. You -could- kill their leaders and watch it fall apart.
Here, you have friggin idiots making their own shoe bombs, and terror cells running independently of each other. They’re completely different animals, Nazis and terrorists, folks.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:44 amFor it. In combat it’s ok to shoot and kill them. Why? Because they are trying to kill us and innocent civilians.
If they are captured and withhold information they are still trying to us by allowing terrorist operations to continue. We need to get the information from the terrorists to keep other terrorists from killing more people. Considering this, I see no difference in killing them on the battlefield and killing them if they refuse to cooperate once captured and tortured.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:34 amMisplaced sentimentality will just get more of us killed. This is another facet of the ‘Violence never solves anything’ bullshit.
If I told you someone took a knife and cut some innocent child open, you’d think he was a monster. But what if he was a surgeon removing a tumor?
I’ve met far too many people who make a fetish out of victimhood. They think it’s nobler to be murdered than to use violence to protect themselves. They’re not sheep. They’re lemmings. If they want to live like that, fine.
But I won’t let myself be killed so they can feel all warm and fuzzy. Moral superiority is no use to a corpse. Gandi said the Jews and Poles should have allowed the Nazis to slaughter them. Fuck that. I’m taking the biggest honor guard I can find to Valhalla.
If you’d rather watch your children be raped and murdered than pour a little water in the face of a jihadist, you are are as much a waste of life as the goatfuckers are.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:59 am“Moral superiority is no use to a corpse.”
Actually, I disagree on this point. Having lived a moral life is all that matters in the end IMO.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:50 pmWHAT WOULD JESUS DO!!!!!
December 13th, 2007 at 1:09 pmJack:
December 13th, 2007 at 2:50 pmIMO this may very well turn out to be the battle of Armageddon against AQ and their kind.
After we defeat these bastards, Jesus may allow us 2,000 years of peace!
jack-
December 13th, 2007 at 3:43 pmeven though we don’t translate the bible literally anymore do you forget that in that day the law was “an eye for an eye.” of course there was “turn the other cheek” but i’m sure we could all agree that in the face of evil and murder of innocent people that the literal fight for righteousness is warranted. even in the eyes of Jesus.
oh yeah and another thing. when the red sea came down on the people chasing the jews out of egypt i think that may have been a tad worse that waterboarding. they actually did drown.
December 13th, 2007 at 3:48 pmAnd Jesus said: “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.”
-Matthew 5:38-42
and Jesus said: “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.”
-Luke 6:27-31
If you’re trying to tell me that Jesus would advocate torture, you’ve lost your mind. Go find it, for the love of God.
December 13th, 2007 at 4:31 pmWhat some of you are advocating is impossible. I don’t think you understand the reality of the wars we’re in. We are not trying to save America anymore, if we were, we would have 30,000 Marines on our border with Mexico. What we are trying to do is convince as many Muslims, correction, as many people in Iraq and Afghanistan that siding with us will be better for them, their children, and their country now and in the future. Anything that can be used against us to foster animosity against our troops or us is more dangerous than anything water boarding could prevent. Like I said before, if you get the Iraqis to trust you, they will give you all the information you need to find, close with, and destroy our common enemies by fire and maneuver. Or to repel our enemies assault by fire and close combat. If you get the trust of the people, we win the war and their will be nothing AQI or AQ could do about it. If we don’t…..then we might as well leave because our guys will be dying for nothing.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:49 pm@ john courage
God loves the Infantry.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:04 pmYou guys really are a bunch of illiterate renecks.
Of course it’s fucking torture - check out the definition of the word.
tor·ture
noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.
–noun 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
PROOF - WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE.
IT IS NOT A MATTER OF OPINION - IT IS A MATTER OF FACT
DUH!!!
The latest PsyOps Counterintelligence Research at Fort Bragg reveal that physical coercion or torture is one of the least effective forms of information retrival as suspect will say anything to stop the interrogation.
Truth serums, polygraphs, even weed and PCP surreptiously administered, are far more effective. And the prisoner often has no knowledge of their use. So there’s none of this shiteful PR that undermines the effort of the combatants on the ground.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:52 pmIf you really want to break a person down mentally, just keep them awake for a few days straight. They will become clinically paranoid and start hallucinating. Again,whether you get adequate info from that I don’t know. I think John C’s assessment is pretty close. But in the end, he has to admit that if they don’t take the carrot, the stick of it is that part of his job is to kill enough people(hopefully bad guys) to get their attention and make the carrot look attractive.In WWII, were we trying to win people over when we bombed Hiroshima or Dresden? I think we were trying to end it and save American servicemen’s lives.
December 14th, 2007 at 12:14 amAs soon as they make it against the law, we will just have to do it covertly. Politicians like to keep busy, so i say condemn waterboarding and then do it anyway, because I m sure that is what will happen anyways. this way we protect innocent civilians from this while assuring that terrorist scumbags, who we know are guilty, will continue to recieve such treatment.
December 14th, 2007 at 2:21 amGod meant for all to be born free. That’s why we were born naked. The Bible is a nice guideline, but I don’t forget it was written by man. All you have to do is look at the middle east and the Catholic Church (of which I am a member) and you can see what happens when only men are in control.
December 14th, 2007 at 4:25 amJack, if you want to lose a battle and ultimately the war, then you go ahead and tie one of your hands behind your back.
Not this man. I want to win.
In the end it is not about who played fair…it’s WHO IS LEFT STANDING. That means: hits below the belt, biting, eye-gouging, no Marquess of Queensberry rules, sucker punches and anything else that leaves you standing!! I can live with whatever I must do to win.
If it weren’t for candy-asses like yourself, every other surrender monkey of the Democratic party and the MSM, we’d have won this battle already and been home sucking Millers. The monkey in Iran would know that we mean business and wouldn’t even think of fucking with us or our friends. He’d be as quiet as a titmouse. Why? Because he’d shape up and get with the program or realize that he’d be next in line for an asskicking and a rope like Saddam.
So yes, wterboarding and any other gruesome torture in your wildest hallucination works for me. I simply do not give a shit when these animals blow up kids indiscriminatly and cut of peoples heads while they struggle, cough, scream, gurgle and sputter. FUCK THEM!
And…I’d do it to their wives and kids while they watched if it’d make them talk to save MY friends and familiy’s lives. You read that right…saving THEIR lives at ANY cost is even worth my soul.
Get it?
December 14th, 2007 at 7:05 am“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.”
December 14th, 2007 at 7:14 am
to One Shot, a man after my own heart.
December 14th, 2007 at 7:18 amFor it, especially if it would have stopped something like 9/11.
December 14th, 2007 at 7:22 amjack-
“And what would happen if it got out in the Middle East that we were waterboarding people?”
What do you mean IF it got out?
You must be some kind of dipshit. No offense.
December 14th, 2007 at 7:29 amticticboom,
You couldn’t be more right.
Jack, if you missed it, here it is again:
“If you’d rather watch your children be raped and murdered than pour a little water in the face of a jihadist, you are are as much a waste of life as the goatfuckers are.”
December 14th, 2007 at 7:37 amWhen someone can convince me waterboarding is torture, then and only then will I say yes, we should abandon torture as an interrogation technique. I see no difference in using the following techniques:
(1) Sleep deprivation
(2) Physical discomfort (i.e., Hot/Cold environments)
In fact, I could make a good medical case that both of these subject the participants to more extreme health issues than waterboarding due to the length of time they are administered.
December 14th, 2007 at 8:36 amWow, I cant believe the level of naivety, internet tough guy speak, and hatred toward their own countrymen spewed from such die hard ignoramus’ in here like ticticboom, oneshot, and Jam. Jack, i do not believe that you are a piece of garbage and agree that water boarding should be outlawed. You people are utterly indefensible who think the war on terror is about carpet bombing, doing unto others as they do unto you, so forth and etc. According to your logic, no muslim is trustworthy and the only way to get rid of AQI is to destroy the countries they are operating in. So according to you, all muslims in iraq and afghanistan are AQI supporters therefore 1) Their entire countries should be systematically destroyed through the means of carpet bombings(but why stop there, lets go nuclear)and various other mechanisms for obliteration and
2)Lets round up every last muslim in iraq and afghanistan and ship them off to auschwitz, because that would invariably save more American lives than water boarding. You need to realize that we are in Iraq and Afghanistan and that we have already gotten rid of the old regimes that existed there. Now we are trying to help the people that live here create a government that will be representative and responsive to them. Like I said earlier, you will get the cooperation of the people if you can get them to trust you. Which is a means that far outstrips water boarding in terms of effectiveness and fostering good will and cooperation between our people and theirs. Anything that can be used to interfere with that is more destructive than a car bomb. We need to convince the Iraqi and Afghani that we are a people of integrity and honor. We need to convince them that cooperating with us is not against islam and that we are not the infidel invader that is just after their sovereignty as AQ or AQI suggest. We need to get them to trust us more than they trust AQ. Water boarding does not help our cause and is supremely less effective than an Iraqi or Afghani with a head full of information who has come to believe that we really are the good guys.
Cpl. Alexander
December 14th, 2007 at 9:41 amUSMC OIF1
Camp Lonestar, Iraq
Semper Fidelis
@One Shot
I want to win too, but at what cost? We can win this thing without sacrificing the very principles we are fighting for. It is outrageously hypocritical to claim that we should be fighting this war to protect our values, and then transgress those values in the name of “security.”
“And…I’d do it to their wives and kids while they watched if it’d make them talk to save MY friends and familiy’s lives.”
So you would torture and murder innocent people. Great. What the fuck country do you think this is? Stalinist Russia?
Have you not been reading previous posts? The PsyOps guys at Ft. Bragg say that It DOES NOT work. I think they know a little more about this subject than you, unless of course you are the monster you imply you are.
“If you’d rather watch your children be raped and murdered than pour a little water in the face of a jihadist, you are are as much a waste of life as the goatfuckers are.”
This is a logical fallacy called a false dilemma, where the real alternatives to a situation are eliminated in order to force the pursuant into agreeing to something that otherwise they would not. This logical fallacy, and loose definitions of rule utilitarianism, are the basis for all torture arguments. They are rooted in immorality.
They are two reasons, as I stated earlier, that people support torture. 1) It allows for a false sense of security, where people believe their government is doing all it can to protect our way of life, when in fact it is compromising the values of their way of life in the process of achieving temporary “security.” 2) People support torture because they have some twisted wish for revenge or retribution on the enemy. This is wrong and immoral and is nothing more than a childish and primitive “eye for an eye” rule. You, one shot, clearly ascribe yourself to the second reason.
The US Military says torture doesn’t work. Just War Theory says it’s wrong. Religion says it’s wrong. The Principles of the Republic say it’s wrong….
Get it?
December 14th, 2007 at 9:51 am@Jack
Thank God for intelligent patriots.
December 14th, 2007 at 9:59 amYou guys cannot be for real…
What the Dumpocrap pansies here fail to realize is that these methods are being used ONLY on TERRORISTS and combatants found out of uniform…many were caught after or in the process of killing our citizens. That little fact seems to have gone right through your simple radar screens.
I say “FUCK ‘EM” with all possible prejudice. They have no right to even breathe my air and you’re worried about what we do to them might be construed as “ugly”? Give me a break.
I say that we get out that filet knife, a bag of salt and the decency of a bullet to the back of their heads once they spill their guts.
December 14th, 2007 at 11:15 amYou can say many things about torture. That it doesn’t work is one of them. I guarantee I can get you to tell me your bank PIN, your social security number, and your mother’s address.
You might lie at first, but when the ATM says invalid PIN, what do you think will happen to you?
Everyone breaks, or they die. Jihadi lives mean less than nothing to me. If that makes me a bad American, so be it. Better to dirty my hands than die pure.
As for Jesus, he was never responsible for the welfare of a nation. Leave theology to the priests. When good intentions meet reality, all the prayers in the world aren’t worth one bullet.
December 14th, 2007 at 11:56 am@one shot
You aren’t looking at the whole picture. This war isn’t about killing people and breaking things anymore. It’s about helping the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan rebuild their war torn countries. We have to prove to them that we are the good guys. How can we do that when we don’t have the integrity to admit that torture is wrong?
“What the Dumpocrap pansies here fail to realize is that these methods are being used ONLY on TERRORISTS and combatants found out of uniform…many were caught after or in the process of killing our citizens. That little fact seems to have gone right through your simple radar screens.”
Again, your scope of this issue is surprisingly narrow. Again, the logical fallacy of the false dilemma. “If you don’t support torture, then you are a defeatist democrat terrorist sympathizer.” Please. Step outside the box for a moment and think about the ramifications of a doctrine of torture as part of interrogation tactics. Multiple authorities on the issue say that it’s wrong. In the short term, the benefits of such policies are negligible at best. In the long term, we will do terrible damage to American credibility and influence, REGARDLESS of who we are torturing.
And what of the people who would do the torture? There would be immeasurable psychological damage done to them. Who would you have torture people? The Army and USMC already refuse to do it. Gee, wonder why that is???
December 14th, 2007 at 12:05 pmJack,
As soon as you get a grasp on who did the waterboarding and to whom…maybe you’ll come to realize that you don’t have the slightest clue about the subject at this point.
December 14th, 2007 at 12:58 pmone shot,
Go read some Just Way Theory, the Geneva Conventions (the 3rd in particular), the U.S. Army interrogation manual, the Bible, the Constitution, some moral philosophy (Kant, Aristotle, Mill, Bentham….take your pick), look at what the Dean of West Point has to say (a one star General…see my links), and John McCain. Then you’ll realize you really have no idea what you’re talking about. The intellectual heavy-weights have come to play.
http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2007/02/west_point_dean.html
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article2265087.ece
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer
December 14th, 2007 at 1:18 pmtor·ture
noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.
–noun 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
PROOF - WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE.
IT IS NOT A MATTER OF OPINION - IT IS A MATTER OF FACT
DUH!!!
Point number one: I’m sorry I just don’t see the proof. Who is the Almighty torture definer? You would have to be extremely narrowly interpreting the definition of torture to put waterboarding in that category. People have posted that the Army and USMC define it as torture. Do they actually state that it is “torture” or do they just say it is prohibited. I have not read them so I do not know. There are other prohibited interogation teqniques that I do know of that are not torture. Such as keeping a Military Woking Dog in an interrogation room during questioning as intimidation. Just because something is “prohibited” does not necessarily mean it is “torture.” The only thing in the definition of torture that even relates to waterboarding could only possibly be “extreme anguish of body and mind.” The rest of the definition does not relate to this teqnique at all. Remember, waterboarding only gives the “simulation” of drowning.
Point number two: There is no lasting physical damage done to someone who has been waterboarded. The only argument here could be that someone who has been waterboarded now endures “extreme anguish of the mind.” Granted maybe for the time that it is occurring which usually only lasts a few seconds. Have any of you ever came close to drowning swimming in the pool or at the ocean when you were a kid? I know I have. do you have nightmares about it to this day? I doubt it.
Point number three: “What will they think of us because we waterboard people.” The possibility that this would be a major recuriting tool for AQ is very narrow minded thinking. Sure it could be used in propaganda to reinforce the ideas of radicals that already hate us. By then it is too late anyways, and do we really care what a bloodthirsty terrorist “thinks of us.” The statement that the entire arab world would look at us as uncivilized people because of this assumes that educated, moderate muslims do not have the brains to form a rational opinion based on all of the circumstances.
Point number four: We all know that it is the CIA who actually uses this method. Not the Military. They play by a different set of rules. And a set of rules that has been left SECRET for a number of reasons, and should stay that way. There are things that NEED to be done that should not ever be disclosed to the public. It is the ugly necessity of a cruel, cruel world.
MA2 Cory Martin
December 14th, 2007 at 1:44 pmUS Navy Law Enforcement
San Diego
John Courage says,
“Besides, if we outlaw it, who says we can’t still do it in secret to high level officers who might actually know something.”
In your heart you realize that there are circumstances under which you would approve of waterboarding. The question is how you want the program of coerced interogation to be managed. I suggest that your idea of having “secret” illegal programs run by rogue unacountable criminal entities supported by our government is not a very good way to go. That is exactly what will happen in reality if coerced interogation is outlawed.
I think the program that we had in 2002 - 2003 is a much preferable way to address the issue. The CIA, not the military, was tasked with interogating High Value Targets (HVTs). The program was classified “secret” to the highest degree possible without it being a rogue unacountable operation. Congressional leaders from both parties were briefed on what was going on right down to the specific techniques being used. From what has been said by people involved in the program, two or three HVTs were subjected to waterboarding. The use of coerced interogation techniques were under strict judicious control under this program. Waterboarding has been attributed with being the technique that caused the HVTs to give up actionable inteligence after numerous other methods did not work. From what is understood, waterboarding hasn’t been used since.
The enemy is always going to claim that we do all sorts of things to detainees whether it is true or not. There will always be examples of illegal (i.e. Abu Grahab) and legal actions that come to light that will bolster some of their claims whether they are “secret” or not. Notice how many “secret” activities show up in the New York Times.
As far as torture goes in this debate, it is a worthless term. Any coerced interogation technique that works on hardened subjects can be classified as torture. They don’t break by being nice to them. Waterboarding causes no physical damage to the subject if it is done properly. It scares the subject, through involuntary response, into feeling that they are going to die. They are not going to die. It is psychological. However, there are no long term detrimental effects to the subject. It lasts 30 - 90 seconds. I would argue that waterboarding is more humane than any other effective technique used on a hardened subject.
I think making effective interogation techniques illegal under any circumstances that most US citizens approve of under certain circumstances is not the right way to go. Asking someone who we are entrusting our national security with to do something illegal because we know it is the right thing to do at the time doesn’t make any sense to me. It doesn’t make sense to ask that of the president or an operator in the field or anyone inbetween.
December 14th, 2007 at 2:14 pmDear Mister Me-Off (that would be you Jack).
If you are a self-described intellectual heavyweight, the Defeatocratic Party is truly fucked up
You go play your obstructionist games like a good little boy and leave getting the job done to real men. If you think for one second that your idea of hand-slapping makes this country safer, then you are dumber and more dangerous than we ever imagined.
December 14th, 2007 at 3:21 pm@one shot
There you go again. I don’t support torture, so I must be a defeatist, surrender monkey, terrorist supporter, wimpy, democrat. You constantly have ignored logic and reason in this debate in favor of basing your arguments on simplistic and immature “if you don’t support this policy, you’re a terrorist!!!” Grow up. The America we live in isn’t some script from 24. That shit doesn’t happen in real life. You advocate for an authoritarian regime that values temporary security over the principles it was originally founded. Perhaps this point on the nature of government is something that we cannot compromise on. In any case, you have ignored all logical arguments in favor of “tough-guy-speak,” based in the world of Jack Bauer and not reality.
Call me what you will, but I’m happy to be an obstructionist when it means protecting things like the Constitution, the Geneva conventions, the Republic, and American values. So wrap yourself in your world of “ticking-time-bomb” scenarios and just keep telling yourself that torture isn’t wrong. maybe it will come true.
Real men, and real Patriots, don’t compromise their own values or the values of this great Nation for the sake of temporary “security.” You, my friend, are neither. So go read a book. Educate yourself, grow up a little. In time you will grow out of the “torture makes me safe” misconception. Instead of just calling me a defeatist, come up with your own ethical argument in favor of the use of torture. Add a little life to this debate. If you’re not willing to do that, perhaps you’re more lost than I originally assumed.
December 14th, 2007 at 4:24 pm“Ticking-Time Bomb scenarios” are not just a plot line on 24. It does happen in real life. Time and time again we hear in news reports about foiled terrorist plots and new “intel” on activities of insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Where do you think that information comes from. I appreciate peoples intellectual opinions on this debate but I’m afraid that they are based in an idealistic dream world. Yes it would be wonderful if we could never have to do anything difficult or possibly controversial to ensure our nations security. But that is just not the real world. Some times the real world requires some not so nice actions. The world is not always black and white. Yes, our country was founded on values and principles, and those values and principles we have not been abandoned. I’m sure our founding fathers had to do some thingsthat were difficult to bring about our Independence.
December 14th, 2007 at 4:46 pmJack,
In 1803 Thomas Jefferson wrote, “strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means.” Many scholars have written on this issue. Some of the most strident violations of the constitution and US laws were ordered by Lincoln during the Civil War.
As far as ethics go on the use of torture in interrogation, try this:
http://www.usafa.edu/isme/JSCOPE03/Kennedy03.html
The paper defines a well argued moral justification for using torture to gain information that prevents very bad guys from doing very bad things. The author is a professor at a Catholic university in MN, University of St. Thomas.
You may have an absolutist stance on these issues. That’s fine. I don’t think most people do. I know I don’t.
December 14th, 2007 at 7:39 pm