The stubborn, insane Arabic tribal mentality has been around since Ishmael. That’s more than 5,000 years old. The Koran and Muhammed just feed into and justify that old hatred.

Appealing to the tribes is only a temporary stopgap. You won’t make a permanent impression on these people unless you can reach into the local mosque and change the messages being preached.

Reforming the Koran and injecting sanity and modernity into its interpretation is the long-term solution to the GWOT. Countering AQ’s propaganda with the correct interpretation of the Koran and Hadith, along with a reformist counter-propaganda message is key to winning hearts and minds IMHO.

The only other alternatives are all-out war or conversion to Christianity. Islamics who embrace modernity or who convert, lose the tribal component.

Islam is all about conquest, imperialism and supremacy. You can conquer that on the ground with bombs and bullets. But you can never reach the hearts of these people without offering them an alternative long-term to radical Islam.

Muzzies may behave when a strong-man is present. But as soon as he turns his back, hudna kicks in…

Dismissing the Koran is a mistake. Reforming it is not. Appealing to the tribes is a great idea. But long-term, appealing to the hearts and reforming the philosophy of Islam is the better track.

Get inside the mosque and you will rule over Islam. Counter AQ and Taliban propaganda and you will destroy their raison d’être.

“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.”

The Gordian Knot of Islam can be found in the mosques wherever Islam is present. Change their philosophy and you will change their minds and win their hearts…permanately.

But good luck. These pinheads don’t even trust their own. And reformists are just kafir and takfir to them.

Islamic supremacy is in the words of Rita Katz “It’s a steady, stealthy indoctrination aimed at creating a whole new generation of jihadists. And scandalously, it is unopposed”

Until that changes, the Gordian Knot will remain intact.

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren’t punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That’s war. And this is war.

Hmmm…But Mohammad did covert the former pagans by the sword.

Rudemeister

Anyway, if it is possible, I agree with everything, everyone has said. If you check the recent history of Iraq, the entire Al Anbar province (Fallujah, Ramadi, Haditha, and Al Qaim, were basically taken without a shot in april 2003. It wasnt until we accidently killed one of the Sunni major tribal leaders (who had cooperated with the CIA pre-invasion) that they started to get pissed at us.

The most prominent display is in sport, and the allegiance to a team. Soccer riots are made up of loyal tribes/fanatics/fans seeking to gain dominance over an opposing tribe. The face painted NFL fan hurling batteries, threats and obscenities at opposing an tribe member is looking to show his strength and allegiance to the tribe. Ever been around the Michigan Ohio football rivalry? The ohio state police are known to pull over Michigan plated cars en mass on the way back from Columbus following the game. They are defending their tribe.

My Family, my blood is my immediate tribal members. They will be defended above all else. It does flow from there, to my religious affiliation, to my neighbors, to my town, political affiliations, business associations, etc.

From your local town, to state and nation you hold a tribal allegiance. When directly threatened you align to them unquestioningly.

The scene on the steps of the Capital on September 11 when Congress came out and sang God Bless America, is that of the nation/tribe leaders showing allegiance above less important differences.

The national fracturing over the Iraq war is in part due to the fact that not all members of the national tribe, known as America, see Iraq as a direct threat to the tribe and have dropped back to allegiances to a smaller tribal groups, primarily political in nature.

The national tribe known as America aligned with other national tribes following 9/11 in a common defense. That alliance has now has dropped back to separate national and political tribal interests.

The success of the United States of America is due to the federation of individual states, or smaller tribes, with the freedom for them to self govern for their own benefit while still being part of a larger tribe for a greater common benefit. This self governance goes all the way down to the city and village level of our society, where they can make their own laws and/or ‘rules’ applying to the local tribe.

The recognition of the tribes and their importance in the governing of Iraq is essential. A federation of the tribes intertwining with larger segments may be the way forward. The fact that it is in the tribal level that the progress is being made does bode well for the future. Their customs and way of life do not have to be threatened by a rule of law implemented from the ground up.

The tribes are working together for a larger common benefit, the Sunni and Shia tribes that are working to improve society overall are learning that cooperation is possible across differences.

……..

In Islam that ethos is the Koran, the Hadith and the Sira. There is no other ethos, socialist, democratic or otherwise.

Change the ethos and you change the culture…tribalism not withstanding.

Gates of Fire is actually about Sparta and Thermopylae (ie 300) so I don’t think reading The Arab Mind would change much.;) (they’re both novels, just to be clear)

Novels or not. My point is that the Gordian Knot is not tribalism, but a mentality that is seared with a hatred of all things and peoples not a part of the Ummah which is codified and exacerbated by the tenants of the Koran, Hadith and Sira.

The GWOT is not confined to two AO’s. It is systemic, and world-wide. Cutting through the Gordian Knot of Pan-Arabic Koranic Imperialism trancends and goes beyond mere tribalism.

And any book, novel, or whatnot that enhances one’s education on the issue is a good thing. Tribalism is just multicultural apartheid with lip gloss IMHO.

The Koran is the achilles heel of Islam.

Correction, the book that I recommended is no novel. It is considered THE seminal work in ME studies. Even the JFK Warfare center recognizes it as THE Book to read to understand the Arab culture and mindset.

Haven’t read the other one. But will add it to my Christmas reading list. Love Alexander. Great military study.

I believe Bremer was right, but too hasty in his effort to de-tribalize Iraqi society. There are some sheikhs like Sattar who are self-Westernized who will transition to wider viewpoints and concerns, and with the dynamics of power and economics at the national and supra-national level at play there, I think they will grow to meet it or be pushed aside — and they know it.

I puked a little in my mouth when in the book, Alexander spouted a speech that could have been written by code pink.
The Stone movie,and the books of Mary Renault, for what it is worth, are better.

As for tribalism : America kills tribalism DEAD. Include ISLAM as a tribal code.

MELEAGER